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2.8 c13 Misfire knocking.........
Topic Started: Aug 10 2012, 10:17 PM (5,368 Views)
ivecojoe
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Hi
I have a 50 c13 2005 van, problem at the moment is misfiring like its running on 3 cylinders, accompanied by a lot of diesel (i hope!) knocking.
So far
replaced both diesel filters no differance
replaced pressure valve on back of hp pump slightly better
low pressure pump working
on the injector connectors tried to improve contacts,this is where a big differance became apparant by wiggling the loom around no 4 you could get the engine to definatly run on four and for about 1 second the knocking stopped and it ran nice,so could be dodgy loom/connector............changed no 4 injector for known good one albiet from a 35c13 the noticable thing here was the injector taken out was bone dry and brown.....so either loom or injector suspect,run up with replacement injector and knocking reduced about 50 %, note also the exhaust is puffing black smoke on about every fourth blow as if its one cyl causing trouble, its lessened by changing injector but not right, so continued and swapped other injectors with no significant differance.
by wriggling the loom at the back it did momentarily again stop knocking again but I couldnt get it to run smooth for more than a second.
My thoughts are as it ran smooth just for a second engine still good, fault is either,loom,injector or hp pump.


The plan of action is to remove injector loom and check it right through as there seems to be a deffinate fault on no4 and the go on from there.........

the knocking is the same as when you have removed an injector and you restart as it self bleeds you get that clatter but it is 99%permanent !
any help guidance appreciated.......cheers Paul
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GARAGE & TRANSPORT SUPPLIES
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Your symptoms sound like overfuelling, but I think you're doing the right thing to concentrate on the loom as there may well be a break inside one of the cables to the suspect injector
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ivecojoe
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Thamks for that,another thing I did notice is if you spin the engine over with the unchipped key the injector light flashes and engine doesnt start (not suprising!) but the immobaliser icon doesnt flash ? also on check lights the diesel filter light doesnt go straight out but dims then goes out, on my other 50c13 it just flicks straight out.
otherwise no oil warning lights or injector lights on whilst engine running (badly) ............
could it be crank or camshaft sensor playing up ????causing misfire/nocking?
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mkampstra
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known problem with injector connectors.
Take them of and twist the pins in the injector.
If you look inside you see [--], twist the pins so it looks like [//]. Ok not that far, but around 15 degrees would be enough. attach all the injector connectors and try again..

Let us know!
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ivecojoe
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Well I pulled the other 3 known to be good injectors from 04 35c13 refitted them in 05 50c13 van ......the idea being it rules out the injectors , that made no differance, I then removed connectors for injectors and modified them as per Makampstra diagram,probably about 10 degree on each, A big thankyou for that tip its easier than trying to close the connector plugs slightly!! although this did put out the intermitant injector light which you could get from wiggling no 4 connector, engine still knocking and slight puffs of black smoke, it actually sounds like a small end to me.its from the top end........but as it definatly stopped knocking for a second or two yesterday pretty much ruled that out.
van is on a sorn so cannot get it into a main stealer to stick it on the computer,and at £90 hour labour plus vat its not going to happen!!
could it be hp pump? I am now starting to think of swapping engines and putting the 35c13 one in ........
all help gratefully appreciated,cheers Paul
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digidash
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im quite sure your problem is electrical. wiggling wires made a difference. instead of wiggling connector try pushing connector firmly into injector while running, i would also push and hold the wires one by one into the connector, personally i would remove the terminals (one by one) from the connectors, close them gently with pliers then put back in connector before removing next one to repeat on all of them. while you have the connectors out check for corrosion or frayed/loose wires where they enter the terminal. also check ecu plug for corrosion. if that doesnt help with engine running unplug no 4, did engine stall? plug back and repeat on 3-2-1. if one of them didn't make a difference you know where to look. have you got or can you borrow noid lights, multimeter and leakoff tester? do a leak off test on your injectors and noid light test on plugs. i forgot you mentioned a dim light & a missing light....have you checked all fuses and cleaned all earths? don't overlook the simple stuff consider how you'd feel if you changed engine but still had fault only to find afterwards the cause was a 10p fuse or loose earth. look in manual for earth point locations, let us know how you get on, good luck steve
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ivecojoe
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Hi Digidash
Thanks for your interest and advice,yes I am thinking the same...change the engine only to find its still the same would be to be polite rather foolish!
I have pushed on injector connectors made no differance and removed each in turn,each one caused the engine to faulter the same.
after changing all four injectors for know good ones where I managed to get the engine to stop knocking originally was by moving the loom down by no 4, so tried this again ,by holding the crank sensor conector block and sqeezing it together momentarily the knock stopped. wether this is a fluke or just nudging another damaged cable at the same time I dont know, but like yourself it does seem electrical/signal related.
At the bottom of your column is a ad for mobile elect/mech . is that you ? I would take you up on it but Southampton is a bit out of your way for £35 eh!
Anyways it begs the question what is a noid light?thanks for your help regards Paul.
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ivecojoe
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Forgot to mention, one thing I did find is that the three wires from the camshaft sensor had rubbed through to copper and either shorted to earth or each other ,they had done this by constant rubbing against the engine lifting lug near the sensor.
I have seperated and insulated them obviously,but made no differance, would it be this has caused ecu trouble? Paul
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digidash
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if all 4 injectors changed engine note when unplugged we'll steer away from them for now...it sounds to me you have "diesel knock" if the crank sensor affected the knock lets spend some time here. incase you dont know ill give a breif description. the crank sensor tells the ecu when no 1 is at tdc and how many rpm the engine is doing. the ecu uses this info to calculate precisely when to send its signals to the injectors to squirt in some fuel. we also know diesel knock is caused by incorrect timing. that makes your next job remove crank sensor, check for and remove any iron filings or crud. check connection terminals and around the bottom for corosion or moisture. next close terminals on wiring loom plug slightly with pliers as described before and check wire to terminal condition as before. also while its unplugged it will be easier to inspect the wires for signs of rubbing/cracking/melting (if shorted) if your happy with everything put it back together and test.

noid lights are just leds that plug on injector plugs. if they flash when cranking/running you know the wires to that injector are telling it to squirt. however you did this test by unplugging while running.

the wires that were rubbed through may have given moisture/water a direct path to the ecu. this was why i said unplug ecu connector and check for moisture/corrosion.

also wires were shorting together so more reason to check all fuses.

if still poorly get hold of a multimeter and ill walk you through the next stage, regards steve
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ivecojoe
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Cheers Steve
So basically it could be what is described as pinking on a petrol motor when timing is out, that makes sense,will get on that asap , if it doesnt change after cleaning up sensor I will take known good one of other 35c13 and try that.
I have been trying to download manual from site here to double check all fuses and relays.........as the last truck I bought had fuses put in where they shouldnt have been and relays in the wrong places!! unfortuantly havent been able to download yet.
on the dash taped just above fuse box a paper written on it.
bosch edc 16 version 01.09 16.05.07 and various codes and a differant engine no than is on log book.
So it may be engine change and later ecu fitted? its an 05 van.
Thanks for the help Steve appreciated, and will let you know how its going . cheers Paul
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digidash
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Tractor Paul
Aug 12 2012, 09:45 PM
Cheers Steve<br /> So basically it could be what is described as pinking on a petrol motor when timing is out, that makes sense,will get on that asap , if it doesnt change after cleaning up sensor I will take known good one of other 35c13 and try that.<br /> I have been trying to download manual from site here to double check all fuses and relays.........as the last truck I bought had fuses put in where they shouldnt have been and relays in the wrong places!! unfortuantly havent been able to download yet.<br /> on the dash taped just above fuse box a paper written on it.<br /> bosch edc 16 version 01.09 16.05.07 and various codes and a differant engine no than is on log book.<br />So it may be engine change and later ecu fitted? its an 05 van.<br />Thanks for the help Steve appreciated, and will let you know how its going . cheers Paul
Tractor Paul
Aug 12 2012, 09:45 PM
Cheers Steve
So basically it could be what is described as pinking on a petrol motor when timing is out, that makes sense,will get on that asap , if it doesnt change after cleaning up sensor I will take known good one of other 35c13 and try that.
I have been trying to download manual from site here to double check all fuses and relays.........as the last truck I bought had fuses put in where they shouldnt have been and relays in the wrong places!! unfortuantly havent been able to download yet.
on the dash taped just above fuse box a paper written on it.
bosch edc 16 version 01.09 16.05.07 and various codes and a differant engine no than is on log book.
So it may be engine change and later ecu fitted? its an 05 van.
Thanks for the help Steve appreciated, and will let you know how its going . cheers Paul
these may help.i would check EVERY fuse. i had a daily last week that wouldn't communicate with scanner....turned out someone had removed fuse 29 and left location empty.check your empty holes to see if they have connectors in. if they do refer to list and fit correct rated fuse. pay attention to marked fuses on image "fuse ids 1 " (if i did it right). for earths i use a wire brush drill bit on a cordless.remove bolt....hold wire in pliers and clean with drill.....clean bolt hole on body and replace. if your keeping van id do all earths it may prevent future faults on other systems. im stacked out today (monday) but if your stuck on tuesday get a multimeter and give me a call so i can explain how to test a wire at both ends for open-circuit, regards steve

the images wouldnt upload give me your email address (by pm) to send you em
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ivecojoe
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Cheers Steve
I have managed to find the file with workshop manual on I previously downloaded, so now have printed fusebox list and will go through that,and clean crank sender weather permiting. have sent you pm with em on it.
thanks Paul
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ivecojoe
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Changed crank sender,no differance, checked fuses and relays all ok. rain stopped play. Paul
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ivecojoe
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Just like to thank everyone for all advice given,its appreciated.
Latest is been busy with work (cant complain about that!)
inbetween I have managed to check the timing....It was wrong..about 5 degrees at cam and probably more like 7 or so at crank !! retimed , starts ok but knock still there,so after checking through everything else I am going to see if I can get hold of a compression tester as my thoughts are bent/sticky valve, testing would tell me straight away if pistons rings bores ok. I will keep you all informed, it is interesting to note that the clatter knocking and misfire has now subdued to a light regular knock! so at least the work completed so far has not been entirely in vain. regards Paul
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mkampstra
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Ok. and if you lift the valve hat, you see the big round valve holder with the spacer plates inbetween.
If you remove the spacer plates you can see if there is a dent or a visible pressure point.
This tells you if the valve hit the piston...

Good luck
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